tingclass

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A8-AbortionandSexualEducation

A8-AbortionandSexualEducation

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onandSexualEducation

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SIDEA

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Ok,todaywe''sabortionandofcourx

ualeducation,itallkindsof,youknow,combinesintoeachother.

Vivian:ThisisViv.

Daisy:Yeap!,'tknowwhatdoyouthi

.

Bow:ThisisBow!It',Ithinkthisisahottopic

'sdigourheelsinandgetgoing.

Luke:Yeah,thelife-givingforcethatweallhaveinsideofus,thatprocreativeimp

ul,thatjustemstokeepongoinglikeasparkthatcanneverbesnuffedout.

Let'srapgang.

Vivian:Helloeveryonewelcomeanduhlet'sintroduceourlves.

Luke:Howareyoudoing?ThisisLuke!

Bow:AndIamBow!

Daisy:AndIamDaisy!

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Vivian:AndthisisViv!

Vivian:Today''sstartoffbysaying,hey,wheredid

youguysstartoff?Imean,how'dyou

getyourxualeducation?

Daisy:Well,urn,well,actuallyIwaskindofbroughtupinaverystrictCatholicfa

ly,myfunn

ystory,

hadneverheardthiswordbefore,didn'tto

theshopandIaskedtheguyforsometampons,

gatthetinylittle,cottonthingsandthinking,whatthehellarethe?Ihadnoi

said,"

Askmom."AndthenI,urn,askedmymotherandshewouldn'ttellmeforliketwo

oundingher,soshegavemethisbookthatwaslikepublishedin

tillhavepicturesofwomenthatutowearthosanitarybel

tsthattheyattachedsanitarynapkins,uldn'tunderstandanyofthew

ords,Ididn'tevenknowwhatapenisoravaginawas.

Vivian:Oh!brutal!

Daisy:AndIwaspronouncingtheword,as"Penis,"and"Vagina."Andmycousin

cametovisitme,id"Iknowwhatxis."

Andhesaid,"No,youdon'it?"AndIsaid,"well,it'swhenamanputsh

ispenisinthewomen'svagina."

Vivian:CanIaskhowoldyouwerewhenyouinfirstlike.

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Daisy:WhenIgotthis?Iwasprobably10or11Iguess.(Vivian:Really?)

Vivian:Whataboutschooleducation?

Bow:asanattemptateducatingstudentswhenIwas,Iguess,ing

avebeenjustpre-pubescentatthattime.(Vivian:Right)

12,Thereabouts,uldtakealltheboysandshuttlethemintoano

therroomandtheywouldleavealltheothergirlsintheclassroomthattheywere

nthegyminstructorwouldtakeusallandexplainbasicthingsveryner

,parto

fhisjobdescriptionwasnotteachingabunchofhornypre-pubescentboysabout

,um,becauthecurriculumhadchanged,hesortofgotstuckwiththej

anit's,it'tshould,

ethingisbythattime,c

autheyhaveolderbrothersorsisterswhosortoffilltheminorstuff,um,orth

eirfriendsdoandthey'

ndofknewalotofstuff,becauitsort

of,am,solidifiedalotofthings,justsothatyouwouldn'tbeembarrasdifitever

cameuplike,Iknowthere'salotoftensionforme,becautherewerealotof

spacesmissinginthewholexthingthatIwantedtogetlike,youknow,gets

'twannalike

justgetthereandbelike"doh",I'veneverlearnedthatpart,no

tnecessary.(Daisy:Theytoldyouthat?)No,Ineednottostudythegeneralthing

s,youdon'twannagointoit,youknow,yourbigromanticfirstencounterandend

uplookinglikeaspasm,justbecauyou,youdidn'twant,youknow,askyourb

'sthatfor?Howdoyouuthatorwhatever.

Vivian:Whatabouttheparentalaspects?Imean,didyourparentverlikecome

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inandaskyouortellyouanything?

Luke:Myfatherwouldsometimescomeuptome,andaskmeiftherewasanythi

ngthatIwantedtoknow,eany,youknow,sorto

fthingsthatyou're,youknow,you'llprobably,youknow,startingtobecomeama

nnow?Isthereanythingthatyou'recuriousabout?Wannaknowabout?Ofcour

forme,Iwasjust'No,that',I'aidlike,AllRight.

Great,ewhat'sgoodenoughforus.

Vivian:Andthenweek,he'dcomeback.

Luke:Justmake,justletyouknow,youknow,I'mhere,ifyoudowannatalkabo

utthisstuff,ifyoudon't,that'sprobably,youknow,justasgoodifnotbetter.(Dai

sy:That'sgreat.)

Bow:Hewasavailableforthat.

Vivian:HowaboutyouBow?

Bow:Um,it,kindofallmost

makemeuh,eitwaskindofinuh,little,cli

Iguess,Lukewassayingitwasfor..,fourthgradeorfifthgra

rttothinkaboutitwhenithappensand...Therearesome,youknow,

as,thiscouplethey

weresuppodlygoingoutandthere'srumorthattheyhad,,eve

ryoneinthatgradewaslikereallyinterestedinwhathappened,whathappened.A

ndtheysaid,,wethoughtthat,th

at'slikewhathappenafteryoudoit,youknow,tooearlyorsomethingyougetsic

nlikethecondpartofitwasafterthat,Iactually,caughtmyparents

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likewalkedintotheroomandIthoughtlikemydadwashurtingm

d"Dad,you'rehurtingmom."Andhesaid,"No,justgobackto

'reOK!"AndthenwhereitgetsworisbecauIwenttoaCatholicsc

ndofmaskedxeducationashealth,ehealt

'retaughtxeducationbyareallybigandfatninety-year-oldnunwho

saysifanybodylaughs,I'la

ughedandIlaughedandthenshesaidlikethisisthepenisandthisisthevagin

a...Boom!likeuh,whenIh

averelationsIfeellikeI'mgonnagetwhackedinthebackofmyheadinaminut

e.

Daisy:Whichyoudoanyway!

Bow:Turnsmeon.

Luke:ItstilltruethatIfeelifyoulaughduringanysortofxualstuff,youusually

getaslapinaface.

Vivian:Arewetalkingfromexperiencehere,right?

Luke:Oh,yes,'thadx,yet.

Bow:,butI'mthinkuh,nowadays,likeIsoundlikearealdad

like:"WhenIwasbackinschool,"but,it'struelikeIthinkpeoplearemoreawar

eofit,atleastinNorthAmerica,andthey'remakingitaprioritytheirkinstakethi

leclassnotasundertheguiofhealthclass.

Vivian:inthepastten,maybe15years,especiallyintheAmericans

otnecessarilybeaclass

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allyyougett

hisclassduringtheendofyourelementaryorbeginningofyourjuniorhighyears,

yteach

you,youknow,allthebasicfunctionsofthebodyincluding,youknow,allthe

xualparts,eroffact,t

here'n'tlik

ethefactoftheschoolteachingitandsousuallyyougetparentalpermissionbef

oreyourchildcanenterthatclass.

Daisy:Well,whenI'm,Iwasinelementaryschool,um,IwenttoaCatholicschool.

Andtheydidn'tteachitintheschoolbutwhattheydidtosatisfytheparentswho

wantedtheeducationwashaveallthekidsgotothelocalchurchafterschool.A

sironic.

Vivian:ThatsoundssimilartoBow'ssituation.

Luke:That'swhythat,icschoolgirlshavesuchabadreputation

cautheydojusttheoppositeofwhattheyarenotsuppodtodo.

Vivian:Exactly.

Daisy:But,um,basically,justthebiologicalfunctionstheytaughtus,youknow,wo

siswhathappensandthenwhenIwenttohighschoolI

reveryliberaltheytaughtusab

outcontraception,xualdias,everythingfromdrugs,tobacco,alcohol,allthos

oughtitwasgood.A

ctually,IfoundtheclassveryinterestingbecauIneverhadthateducationinele

mentaryschool,andIknowmoreIthinkaboutthothingslikexualdiasth

it'sreallyimportanttote

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achkidsthat,andgivethemthatxualeducation.

Bow:Thethingthat'sum,strangearethestatisticsliketoday,becauyouknow,

sayfromthefortiesforexampletothesixties,orlatefiftieventhoughxedu

cationitwaskindofweirdtalkaboutitanditwasreallyscientificandstuff,butth

erewaslessteenagepregnancythen,thanthereisnowwhenthey'rereallyadam

isitjustthatthekidsarenotlis

teningordotheythinktheynomorethanmorepeople?Idon'tknow.

Luke:Ithinkit'sthat,Ithinkthereasonthatparentsareagainstitisbecauthey

thinkthattheirchildrenarebecomingeducatedaboutthewrongthingsattooearl

yanage,butthetruthisthatkidsaregrowingupthey're,they'rematuringalotf

aster.(Daisy:repromiscuousthantheyudtobe.)Notnecessaril

ypre-mascuous,butImeanthattheycomeof,theysortofcomeofagealittlee

arlierandthey,urn,theygothroughthechangesalittleearlierandthethingis

theyaregoingtoget,theyaregonnageteducated,theyaregonnalearnabouts

ex,they'regonnabecuriousaboutit,'sprobablybetterthatli

ketheylearnaboutitonTVsandmoviesandmusic,

ydon'thavethatsortof,urn,educationalaspect,andsortoflikewhatyoushould

do,maybeandwhatyoushouldn''swhyxeducationit'snotlikethey'r

egonna,justgothroughlife,notevenhearingaboutx,notwonderingaboutito

rcuriousaboutit,iftheydon'xeducationisgoodin

that,itsortofsaysnowjustbesmarteraboutit,youknow,likeputthisonorus

ethisorlikemaybe,maybeit'tothinkofyouroptionsan

diftheywon'tgetthatoutofaschooltting,theyjustgetxisdirty,it'skinda

'rejustcuriousaboutitandtheywanttolearnaboutit.

Vivian:Forme,youknow,myparentsneversatmedown,eventotheday,we'

,weneverhadthatbirdsandthebeeslitt

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rstcontactwiththatkindofinformationwasine

lementaryschool,justlikeLukesaid,wehadthelittleclasswheretheschoolnurs

eactuallytookyouaside,

hapsthegirlscould,youknow,runintotheirmenstrualcycleanytimesoonnow.

ygaveusthislittlesampleofthesanitary

Ifirstranintomylittleaccident,youknow,Ihadthatlittlesamp

lethattheteachergavemeandso'ThankGod!'Youknow,caumymomandI

nmycondencounterwiththatsortofinformati

onwasinjuniorhigh,whenwehadthehealthclassthatDaisywastalkingabout.

Wehadthehealthclasswherewetalkedaboutallsortsofthingsstartingwithdr

ugsandgoingdownto,youknow,theaca-,uh,anatomyandxandwhatnot,a

ndIthinkwhenyou'reyounger,becauchildrentalk,uh,shewentoutwithsoan

dsoandtheydidthisandthat,ofcour,youknow,themoviesandvideosalls

'salotofthingsthataren'tfactualbu

tyouknowlotsofrumorthingsthatyouthinkmaybetrueandxualeducationk

indofreinforceswhatyouknow,andwhatmaynotbefactualandalotofmyths

getclearedoutoftheway,youknow,aboutSTDs,andAIDSanddrugsandgetti

ngthisdiaandthatofcourpregnancyandwhatnot.

Bow:Urn,yeah,,Ithink,uh,oneofthethingsthatyou'resayingisthat

you'reunfortunatetonothavethetalkwithyourparents,likeeverybodydoes,Id

on'it'sveryrarethatpeopled

oandIthinklikethemovie"AmericanPie,"that'swhyitwassofunnywiththefat

her"EugeneLevvy"like"Sonhere'sacoupleofmagazinesforyou."Everybodyco

uldrelatetothat,becauthat'it'sjustkindofweirdtot

alktoyourkidsaboutandtheytrytodoit,cautheythinkit'stheirduty,butit

doesn''tthinkso.

Daisy:Ithinkit'sjustprobably;it'eyouknowam

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other-daughterorfather-sonrelationshipis,youknow,extremelynsitivewhereth

rdoesn'torfatherdoesn'twanthisdaughtertobe,

youknow,nkit'sverydifficultforthem,butth

at'swhyIthink,urn,becauthey'refamilieslikethat,thatdohavedifficultiesdisc

ussingthothings,thatitisabsolutely,urn,oftheutmostimportance,thateducati

onbeinschools,ernmentshouldmakethatthelawwhether

parentsdon''tcarewhatcountry

you'rein,evenifyou'reinKorea,andtheysaythere'snoAIDSwhichisjust,just

misinformation,youknow,thereare,otherxualdiasoutthere,thatcansta

ywithyouforlife,andyouknow,thatmightnotbelifethreateningbuttheyaren

otcertainlynotcomfortable,andyouknow,there'sAIDS,there's...Oh,there'reso

manydifferentthings.(Vivian:STDs,sure)Youknow,otherthanpregnancytoworr

yabout(Luke:Psychologicalthings)Sure.

Vivian:IdefinitelyagreewithDaisy,'sdefinitelytrueandthenalsoitdo

esn'alwayssay,hey,itstarts

withthehomeanditreallydoes,andforexample,Imean,ifyouweretoputyou

rlfinthosameshoes,ifIhadadaughterorason,Imean,Ieventuallyknow

Ihavetotalktothem,sure,thisisthepositionthatmanyparentsareputinis.I

needeventuallytalktomychildaboutsomethinglikethisbut"Aretheythereyet",

soit'skindoflike,kindof,youknow,testyouout,maybetestoutthewatersby

comingoutandsaying..."So,isthereanythingyouwannatalkabout?"kindofli

keinLuke'nofcourthekidsinthesamesituationwerethere,

it'sanawkwardtopicforthem,hey'renotgonnasay,

ever

enduptalkingaboutiteventhoughyourchildmaybe16,18,erwant

,mychildisxuallyactiveorisgoingtobe,andsoyou

,Bow.

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Bow:Um,yeah,that’'showIfeltwhenIfirsthadmydaughte

r,andIthought"oh"I'mjustgonnabeastrictdadandshe'snevergonnahaves

ex,she'nImet,uh,anotherf

ather,'sopinionwasth

at,that'he'sjustgonnarebelagainstyouevenmore,shegon

nabecomelikeaprostitute,she'sgonnadoitformoney,youknowit'sjustanatu

ralres..,res..,naturalthing,'swhatpeopledo.

Vivian:Godforbidyourdaughterdoesthattenyearsfromnow.

Bow:Yeah,,anywayIkindofrealized,you'reexactlyright,andIcan'

tdothat,Ican'tlike,youknowlockherup,andputachastitybeltonher,orget

thechastityrings...Ijusthavetokindoftrytoraiher,naturallyinhopelikesh

e'llbesmartenoughtomakeherowndecisions.(Daisy:Hopethatshehasgoodj

udgment)

Vivian:Idefinitelythinkthatthemoreinformedyouare,thesmarteryouare,think

aboutit,whenyoulookattwo18-year-olds,forexample,andyouhaveonethat

isverymucheducatedandawareofhersurroundings,andcurrenteventsandwh

ue

theignoranceandthenaiveteofonechildversustheother,youknow,thatperson

thathasmoreknowledge,youknow,yeahthey're,theyknowwhat'sgoingon,but

thenalsothey'regonnabe,moreawareofthebadthingsandtheyaregonnabe

smartabouttheirchoicesanddecisionsversustheonesthatarenotsoawarea

ndsooutofcuriosityandignoranceshe'sgonnagointhereandmostlikelybein

alotmoredangeroussituations.

Luke:Ithinkallkidsrespondto,uh,'sreall

yhardtodowithatopiclikethat,butIfindthatlikecoddlingkidsandjustgoing

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likegoo-googa-gaandstuffoftenthey'rejustlike,OK,someone'smakingstupidv

'snothowtheyreallytalkwhenthey'reamongthemlves,soIt

hinkthey'dreallyrespondto,toasubjectlikethatwhichisverynsitiveifyouca

njustshowthemyou'recomfortabletalkingaboutitlikeatanearlyageevenifyo

anjustsortofIdon'tknowbeopenaboutthatstuff,beavailabl

itwouldn'tbesuch,suchahardthingt

otalkaboutbecauitreallyisanaturalthing,youknowit'ssuchanobviousthin

gandit'sjustallthisothersortofsocialconditionsthatmakeitsortofdodgetot

alkabout,youknow.

Vivian:Andwhohereattheageof15or16,didn'tthinkthattheywerematuree

noughoradultenoughtohearsomethinglikethis,whenyourparentsdotalktoy

oulikethatyou're"Yeah,whatever",andthenitjustmakesyourevoltagainstthe

mmore,whentheyspeaktoyouatsuchalevel,youknow,whentheyifyourpar

entshadactuallytalkingyouattheageof15andsatyouasideandsai."Hey,yo

u'reanadultnow,you',let'sjusttalktoeac

howitis,andifyou'regonnagetinvolvedorIwouldp

referthatyoudon'areveryfrankwithyo

u,Imean,Ihonestlythinkthat,yeah,Iwouldprobablyrespond,notonlywiththat,

youknow,thewholexualaspectsbutwithmanyotheraspectsaswell,atam

bablygrownupalittlebit.

Bow:You'resayingthatifyourparentswerefrankwithyouthen(Vivian:Yeah,I'

mjust)Idisagreewiththat.(Vivian:Youdowhy?)BecauIthinkthepointthaty

oumadethatteenagers,urn,dothinkthattheyarematurebecauofthatreason

theydon'inkyoudon'trealizethatuntilyoube

comeanadult,andIthinkifyou'refrankwiththem,yeah,theycouldbe"yeah,w

hatever,whatever,whatever."

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Daisy:Yeah,butitdependsontheattitudethatyouhavetowardsthem,Imeanif

you'retreatingyourchildrenlikeababytheentiretime,Imeanthat,(Luke:Ands

uddenlycomeupandsay,OK,let'stalkaboutthebirdsandbees.)Exactly.

Luke:Imeanyouhavetoopenwiththemevenfromayoungagelikejustsortof

letthemknowlike"thisiswhatmakesgirlsgirls,thisismakesboysboys,"andli

kestartatthereallybasicstufflikethat,Imean.

Vivian:Cautheentireraisingthechildexperienceisaneducationalthingfromv

erythebeginningitleadsgradually,andslowly,andeventuallytowardthexedu

cationthingaswell.

Bow:OKthanks.I'llrememberthat.

Daisy:Well,youknow,Ijustthinkthatwe'resowaybeyondonthisdiscussionId

on'tthinkit'itsho

whetherthegovernmenthastodothat,th

eschoolhastodothat,ortheparents,itshouldbemadesomelawthatmakesit

eIamnot,Idon'twantmychild,if,evenifshecan'ttalkto

meevenifIhaveagreatrelationshipwithmychild,ifheorshecan'ttalktome,

Iwannaknowshe'sgettingthatinformationsomewhereel.(Vivian:Right)Beca

uit'eKorea,foranexample,youknow,here's

acountrythathasbasically,myniece,y'r

estilljustgivingthemthebiologicalprocess,youmenstruate,thepenisisinrt

edintothevaginaandsoon,andsoon,reallyknowsnothingab

sn'tknowanythingaboutxual

llthinks,andsodoestherestofKorea,whichjustmakesmein

sanelyangry,thatyoucangetAIDSbydrinkingoutofthesamecupassomeone,

youknow,Imean,it'sjustmisinformation,andthething,thisisacountrythatha

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snightclubsthathaveprofessional,youknow,dm,'s

'stherestofAsiaaswell,andurn,it'soktohavehookersworki

nginnightclubsas,youknow,'s

notoktoteachtherestofthecountrythatyouneedtowearacondomthatyou

needtoprotectyourlf,thatthere'sAIDS,there'sotherxualdiasoutthere.

Luke:Whatarethenamesofthonightclubs?

Vivian:Anyways,IdohavetoagreewithDaisyononepointistheactualamount

ofeducationyouaregettingandatwhatage,sayingbefore,Ilear

nlikesaidespeciallywhenyo

uareatthatageyou'reverynsitiveandyouhearalotofinformationandthat's

notactuallyfactual,alotofitis,,

ifyoudothis,lly,ninetyp

ercentofitisallfal,Imean,itsfalinformationandyoushouldbeinformedwi

thfactualinformationwhetherit’sfromschool,nto

thisday,evenfromadultsthatIspeakto,'salotofpeoplethat

aretotallymisinformedaboutcertainthings,Imean,theymayknowituptoacer

tainpoint,butthenthattheydon'tknowthe,w,ImeanI'mt

alkingabout30-year-oldadultswhodon'tknowthe,theentirepicture,youknow,a

ndImean,whenthechildrenaregoinguptojuniorhighandtheyknowbasicall

ythe,thelittleskeleton,buttheydon'tknowthemeatypartofit,andthentheyh

ough,youthinkyou'resuppodtoknowyou'renots

osure,,thatmustbetrue,Imean,iftheyg

etfactualinformationinsteadofbeingmisinformedbytheirpeers,wouldn'tthatcha

ngealotofthings.

Luke:owingup,uh,alotof,uh,peoplethatIknewwhowerestarti

ngtoexperimentwithxundertheunderstandingthatyoucouldn'tgetpregnantt

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couldn'tgetpregnantifyoudiditinacertainposition,ifthe

wassortofaformofbirthcontrol,youkno

'sthefirsttime.

Forgetaboutit.

Bow:there.

Vivian:Ihaveatotallyprimeexample;thisisjustsomethingrecentthatIhadrece

thatinKoreaaformof,Ithink,Idon'tknow,ifitwasKoreaor

Americawhatever,butmaybetwentyyearsago,aformofbirthcontrolwaspulling

outbeforethemaleejaculated.(Luke:Ithelps.)Ithelps,yeah,butthatisnot100

not(Daisy:Coitusinterruptus)totallynot,y

ouknow,andIwastryingtoexplain,w,itleaksoutalittlebit,

andthenalsoeven,andthat'nthecondfact

whichwasn'tafactwas,um,thereweremanywomenthatwereconfudasto

whenyou'remenstruatingifyouhaveintercour,youcouldn'tgetpregnant,orwh

enyou'remenstruatingthatwasthetimewhenyoudoget,youknow,pregnant,w

hatisverydangerousinformationtohave,ifyouareonthewrongsideof.

Daisy:Well,that'stherhythmmethod,andthat'swhattheCatholicChurchtriedto

geteverybodytouitandthat'swhyCatholicparentshavesomanychildren.(L

uke:That'swhyit'sthemainreligioninChristianity.)

Vivian:Ifyou'retogotoadoctor,askhimifthisistrueornot,heprobablywould

laughinyourface,becau,firstofall,thisisnotawayto,youknow,protecty

ourlf,andperhapsifyoudon'twannaconceivechildrenthatisnotthewaytog

ond,itisn'ttrue,youknow,Imeanthatistotallyfalinfo

rmation.

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Luke:Butit'shard,ifpeopledon't,ifkidsdon'thaveanywheretogotootherthan

friends'whoalsodon'tknowthescore,andifparentsaren'treallyforthcomingwit

hthatkindofinformationandtheydon'tgetitintheschools,likewherearethey

gonnagetit.

Daisy:That'swhy,youknow,Iurge,youknowparentstogoandjointheirPTAto

writetheirlocalmembertogettheirgovernmentstodosomethingtomakeitcom

pulsoryinschools.

Bow:IthinkitisactuallyintheStates(Luke:Itis.)(Vivian:InAmerica)theprobl

emis,withthatis,eventhoughlikeanythingel,UShistoryiscompulsory,buty

ougotta,alotofkidsinthepoorneighborhoodsdon'tgotoschool.(Daisy:Right)

Sotheyarenotshowingupfortheclass,youknow.

Daisy:Wellthat'swhyIthinkthatthereneedstobesometypeofstandardin,yo

uknow,inxeducationinschools,andasBowsaid,youknow,ofcourthere

arethepoorkids,youknow,inpoorneighborhoodthataren'tgettingthateducatio

reareyouknow,I,I,thegovernmenteveninthestates,istryingtodo

thingsaboutthatImean,they'vegotwelfareofficestupandpeoplethatgoout,

theytalktowomenwhoaresinglemothershavingchildrenandgivetheminforma

tionabout,youknow,howtoprotectthemlvesbothfromxualdia,andpr

inkithastobeanationaleffortinanycountrythatyoulivein.I

fyouhavechildrenandyou'renotinvolved,thenyou'

vetogo,etogotothevillage

meeting,discussthethingsthey'ou'renotinvolved,thenify

ourchilddoesgetpregnantthenyouareresponsibleforthat.

Vivian:AndIthinkthiventuallyleadstoanotherquestionthatisactuallyavery

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hotissue,,whatifallofthis

xualeducation,itdidn',whatif,uh,itjustdidn'twork

outthewayyouwanteditfor,yourdaughterorson?Whatiftheydidgetpregna

ntorwhatiftheygotsomeoneelpregnant,they'dbeenasituationwherewhat?

Theymaybestudentsandtheycouldn'tfinishtheireducationorthey'dbeforcet

o

urevenasayoungadultoranelderadult,youmaygetpregnantandthatisn

resomeoptionsoutthereforyou

andthey'redifficultoptions,andwecandiscusssomeoftheoptionsfirst,and

ehowweallfeelaboutthis,um,obviouslythetopicisadopt..,um,I'msorry,ado

ption?reoneofthechoices,yeah,that'soneofthechoices,butabor

eallyhotsteamyissue,lotsofpeoplegetveryurn,nsitiveaboutthi

sone,solet'pro?OrAr

eyouagainstabortion?Areyouforabortion?Andcondlet'stalkaboutthechoi

nastartupBow?Areyou(Bow:Me?)Luk

e?

Bow:Um,Ithinkthat.

Vivian:Whatsideareyouonfirst?

Bow:Idon'tchooeitherside,I',Ibel

ievethat,um,thereshouldn'tbeanabortionifpeopleare,canberesponsible,ift

heyhavetheabilitytoberesponsible,butthey'rejustchoosingnottobebecau

oh,it''inextremesitua

tionswheredependingonhowthatchildisgonnaberaid,ifthechildisgonna

growuptobe,youknow,raidinaterribleenvironmentthenmaybethebestch

oicewouldbeto,youknow,,ifithadtodowitha

mother'shealth,um,basicallyyes.

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------

SIDEB

------

Vivian:'s,let'sgetbacktothatinalittle,alka

,annatelluswhereyoustand?

Daisy:,,Ijustwannato

askhimifyoudohavelikeobviouslyIunderstandwhatyou'resayingandprobab

lyprettymuchmostpeoples'viewsarethesame,buthowcouldyoumakealaw

tomakeastandardforthattypeofthing,howcouldyousay:it'sokforthisperso

ntohaveanabortionbutit'snotokforawomaninherthirtieswho'snotmarried,

buthasthefinancialabilitytohaveachild?

Vivian:There'sawidegreyarea.

Bow:Yeah,Idon'tknow,it's,Idon't,I'mnotalawmaker,Idon'tknowthatisst

illuh,just,uh,'swhatIthink,(Vivian:Exactly)andI,itshoul

thatdomakelawsandpeoplethatdomaketheir

s,youknow,whohavetheproblemsandthesituationscomeup,andwesho

uldbetalkedabout.

Luke:Butyou'rebasicallypro-choice,butyoudon'tthinkyoudon'tfeelthat,thatit

shouldbeudasaformofbirth-controlforexample.(Vivian:Itshouldn'tbeabu

d.)

Bow:Ifyouhavetolabelit,butIthink,youknowwithinthelabelofpro-choice

orextremepro-choicepeople,'mmoreyoukn

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ow,inthemiddleofbothoftho.

Luke:Ofcour,saythatI'mdefinitelypro-choice,

butIthinkthatyeah,abortionisnotsomethingthatyoujust,youjust,sortofdo

n'tthink,Idon'tthinkthat'sanyhuman,inaperson'sn

ature,Imean,ifsomeone'sgonna,gonnahaveachild,awomanis,obviously,is

gonnahavethechild,there'sgonnabesomekindofattachmentto,andsomekin

esn'tmakeitaneasydecisioninany,i

ifit'sarepeatedthing,ifit's,ithappenscontinually,there's

aobviouslyproblemthereandIdon'tknow,it'shardtoregulatethat(Bow:Yeah)

butIalso,Idon'tthinkthatsomeonewho'sdefinitelynotready,andnotinterested

inraisingachildandisn'tgonnagivea100%,orisn'tjustlike,mentallyandem

otionallypreparedforthat,'tknowifit'sifit'sawimov

eandiftherenot,ifthey''sthefirstsignthatit's,

uh,no,shouldn'tdoit,shouldn'tbedone,shouldn'thappen,dotheabortion,givet

hechild,likeafairshotahavingareallifekindofthing.

Vivian:Sobothyouguysarekindofinthepro-choicectionbutnotvery,youk

now,(Daisy:Pro-life)right.

Bow:Idon'tthinkfortheextremepro-choicepeoplewhosaylike,uh,it'sgonna

ruinmycareerandthiskindofthing,ifthatpersonhasconfidenceinthemlves,

andIbelievethattheycouldriabovethat,theycouldtakecareofachild,and

then,Ithinkoncethattheystartedtoraithechildandtheycould,peopledoit

allthetime,theyhavecareersandtheyraichildren,theybecomesuccessful.A

ndthechildrengotocollegeandtheybecomesuccessful,andbecomeagreatm

yousayliketolookaheadintothefutureandsayno,th

isisjustgonnaruineverythingforme,so,I'mjustgonna,youknow,cutthimbr

yoout,andit'snothing,itdoesn'tmeananything,butIbelievethatthe,um,pro-,

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extremepro-choicerssaythatit'snotalifeyetand,butIdon'tbelieve,Ibelieveit

isalife,it's,itislife,likeeverycellinyourbody'slife,

plantsarelife,'smyopinion.(Luke:Yeah)

Vivian:OK,oyoustand?Doyouhaveafirmstandoneitherway?

Daisy:Well,I'vethatabortionshouldbe,shouldbel

auIdon'tbelievethatafetusis,urn,not

veexactlythesamethingthatBrandandoes,notbecauIbe

lievethatafetusisnotababyatthatpoint,lyve

,I'minagreementwithBow,,I,Ibelieveit

isanecessaryevilofoursocietyandthatwhatwewerediscussingbeforexe

'vebeennegligentand,um,thereforemanywomenarefallingpregna

ntanddon'thaveanoptionofcourtherearethewomenthatarecareerwom

enandsayingthatitwon'hatwomanissolfishatthatpoi

rather,therearesomanychildrenthatareneglected,inoursocietiest

oday,I'drathershegetridofitthanhaveit,becau,ratherthaneinganother

childbeingbroughtupina,uh,alfishhome(Vivian:Right)withalfishmothe

feelthatifwegobacktothe1950swherewomenwerehavingbackya

rdabortions,stickingcoathangersupthemlvesanddamagingthemlvesforlife

sotheycouldn'thaveanotherchildorwomenthatarerapedbytheirfamily,orst

'tthinkt

hat'thelawshouldbetheretoprotectwomen,andIthinkit'satotal

'menragedwhenIhearmeningovernmenttalkaboutit.

Vivian:Well,there'salotofdetailsabouteachside,youknow,forexample,Icoul

djustbringupthefact,um,lotsofpeoplelikeforwomen,lotsofpeoplethinkit's

thewomen'schoice,,,butthereareso

manypeoplethatwannaadoptchildrenbutcan'ldn'tthis

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personinsteadofget,um,havingthechildoryouknow,andkeepingit,whydon't

theyhaveitwaitthe8monthsor10months,havethechildandgiveitupfora

doptiontothecoupleswhoreally,n,thatpersoncanal

soargue,hey,that8to10monthsthat'sawholeyearoutofmylifethat'schangi

aybeIdon't

hatcouldbeanargumentthere,a

ndthenhere'sanotherargument,alotofpeoplesay(Bow:Oneatatime,oneat

atime)sure,ok,butthisis,thewoman

doesn'twantthatandtheman,thereisalwaysamaninvolved,Imean,wealway

ssayit'sthewoman'sbodybut,isittheman'schoicesaswell?Andwhatifhed

oeswantthechild,andthewomandoesn''sattackthisone.

Daisy:vethatifit'samanandawomanthatareinvolvedinamutual

lovingrelationshipandthey'relivingtogetherandtheyhavethemeanstohavetha

tchild?Ibelieveinthatcathatthemanhasafiftypercent'say.'Um,ifitwas

acasualonenightaffair,Idon'tthinkhehasachoice,hewassimplysleepingw

iththewomanandtheyweremutuallyusingeachotherifthey,ifyoulike,Idon't

thinkhehasanysayin...thatwomanbecaushehadaone-nightstandwithhi

'sabsurd.(Vivian:Butyouguys)

Luke:Butwhatifhe'ssayinghewantstosupportitandhe'swillingtogothrough

withit?It'suptothewomanandto,toconsider.(Daisy:Yeah,itisuptoher.)B

utthemanactuallyifheisafullafull,uh,likeafullpartnerintherelationshiph

axactly50%?(Daisy:Ithinkthathedoeshavesame)eventhoughitisthewo

man'sbody50%,exactlythat?(Vivian:50%?Wouldyoulikeittobe40?)(Vivian:

Idon'tknow...)

Luke:Whatwouldyoudo?Ifitwas50%youcouldn'treallydc)anything?

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Daisy:Youhavetotakeittothecourt,inacourtofthelaw.(Bow:Whatshouldt

helawbe?)Whatshouldthelawbe?(Bow:Yeah.)Well,iguessthattheyhavet

otake.(Bow:Whatdoyouthink?)WhatdoIthink?Iguesverysituation'sgonn

abedifferentImeanthat'sthething,Imean,ifthewomancouldpossiblylohe

'sinacountrylikeKoreawhereyouknow,Imean,some

womenarediscriminatedagainstifthey'remarriedandhavechildrenintheworkpl

,ifit'sgoingtodiscriminateagainsthercareerandshe'sgot,she'sgota

greatfutureaheadofher,then,youknow,Ithinkweshouldbemorethinkingabo

's,ifit'slikelythatshecanhavemorechildreninthefuture.

Luke:I'msurpridyougavetheman50%,that'swhyIsaidit.

Luke:That'sverygenerous.

Vivian:Ialsotakeintoconsiderationthatwe'rekindofthinkingmorealongthewe

sternside,Idon'tknowaboutEuropeorupothercountries,butinAmericaawom

now,beforesheevenshowsshecan

takeoffandcomebackaftershe'a,apparently,youdon't

havematernalleave,youonlyImean,youcanonlyleaveforonemonth,I'mnot

evensure,butyoucertainlydon'thavesixmonths.

Daisy:Twomonths.

Vivian:sbut,eitherway,Imean,thesituationistotallydiffere

ntthatwouldputyou(Daisy:Right)totallyputyoubackifyouwereinadifferent

country.

Daisy:Itwould,andIthinkthat'ssomethingtotakeintoconsideration,butevenin

ourcountry,Imeaneventhoughit'smoreacceptedandthere'salotofpeopleth

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at,'res

ycountry,andmeIgrowupinaCatholicfamily.

Ifmyfatherheardmetalklikethis,he'dprobablyhaveacow,butthearemy

choices,butI'mnotmakingmy,mychoiceon,youknow,ascientificfactor,orev

b

elieveit'safeministissue.

Luke:''skindofinKoreaorinAsiait'sacatch22,

becauaccordingtosocietyyouknowyou'renotsuppodto,you'renotsuppos

pledo,becauit'sanaturaltheywannahavex,some

youknow,someaccidentshappen,ntheymakeab

'renot,andifyou'repregnantoutofwedlock,thenyou'reloo

,whatareyousuppodtodoreallyinthatca?(Vivia

n:Exactly)

Bow:Theytupthingshere,intheConfuciansocieties,(Vivian:Sure)youha

venochoicesreally.

Daisy:But,Idothinkit'sbecomealittletoocommonasLukewassayingbefore,

therearesomewomenouttherethatareusingthisasaformofcontraception,w

hichisjustamoralyouknow,it'inkthatweneedtokind

ofgetbacktoeducatingpeoplethatthisisnotokandit's,not..,apparentlyIwas

toldbyadoctorthatit'eawomanhasanabort

ion,thelesschanceshehasoffallingpregnantagain.

Vivian:Right,andhavingahealthybabytoo,anditcauspro,problemsforhers

elf,too.

Daisy:nkifwe'

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ayingit'swrongthatwomenstillhavethechoices,butofferotheral...(Vivian:Al

ternatives)hecareerwoman.A

avethischildthearethebenefitsthatwecangiveyou,thisisth

,Youknowwitha

boutifthegovernmentwantsto,youknow,mo

veawayfromsomanypeoplehavingabortion,thenofferotheralternativesandop

tions.

Vivian:The,theoptionscertainlydohavetobethere,butalsothereisthemoral

aspectyouknow,whichifyou'redoingitforcontraceptivereasonsorbecauitw

asanaccidentandyoureallyweren'tcarefulorbecauyoucouldhaveit,butyo

ucouldn'sbutwehavetomakethatmoralissuemuchmoreofastrong

erpointinsocietynowandalso,Imean,ifyou'redoingitjustyoucouldhavethe

babybutIjustdon'ouldbelikea

would..,itshouldbelikeastandardthingthatwethinkthati

snotright,youknow,Imeanyoushouldonlydothis,inthecaof,thisismyp

ersonalopinion,butifyouwererapedor,inextremecircumstances,ifyou'revery

young,anditreallywasanaccident,andyouhavenootheroptionslefttoyou,I

mean,thenIthinkthatshouldbeanoptionforyou.

Bow:Um,thisiskindofgettingbacktowhatweweretalkingabout,orIwastal

,um,haveyouent

hemovie?Whatisit?IfWallsCouldSpeak,itisallaboutabortion?(Vivian:Yes,

Ifwallscouldtalk)well,ifwallscouldtalk,oston,there'salotofum,

abortionclinics,andthere'asaguy

thatclotomyhou,anabortionclinicthatwasclotomyhouandaguy

'sunderthetitlepro-lifewhichisk

indofacontradictionbecauhe'stakingalife(Daisy:Exactly)Hetryingtosay,

buthixcuisthatI'mtryingtosavemanylivesbytakingone,Buthowdoest

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hatwork?youknow,Idon'tunderstandthat.

Vivian:It'slikeavigilantekindofinstance,andheiskindofcontradictinghimlf

buthe'ssayingI'llsaveamajorityversusone.(Daisy:Right,somanybabies)

Bow:Iknowwhathe'ssayingbut,Imean,thowomenaregonna,havegonet

dtaskofmakingadecisiontogothere,arenotgonn

astopthere.

Daisy:fascinatingtomeis,thathere,'

rtionhasbeenaroundforcenturi

es,anditwasn'tperformedbyadoctor,itwas,basically,youknow,youknow,yo

ugotoyourlocalherbdoctororwitchdoctor,andyoucan,anabortioncanbep

shasbeengoingonfor

ican,alotoftribesinAfrica,theybelieve,thatitissolelyupto

thewomanasthegiveroflifeandsheisthereprentationofgodandifshefal

lievet

hatifthatlifeisnotwantedthenwhyshoulditbebroughtintotheworld,itshould

broughtintotheworldwhenit'y'vebeenusingtheherbsfor,fo

ruh,centuries,toperformabortions,soit''snotsomet

hing,youknow,now,

I,I've,Ikindofdon'tunderstandwhypeopleare,maybebecauit'sjustpublic

'tgetit.

Bow:Thatmakesitaveryeasydecisionforthemanwhohadimpregnatedthe

woman(Daisy:Right)inthatculture.(Daisy:Right)Ifit't,

hedoesn'thavetopayforanythingandhedoesn'thavetohavetheguilt.

Daisy:Hedoesn'thavetogooutandhuntgoatsorsomething.

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Vivian:OK,soIthinkthemoralissueshouldbe,irstof

all,menshouldtakeresponsibility,it'snotahitandgokindofthing,youknow,y

oushouldstickaroundevenifyouweren'tinvolved,untiltheprocessisover,and

throughwithwhetherit'scarryingitouttotheend,orwatchingitthroughuntilshe

ouldal...alwaymphasizeadoptionbeing,youknow,an

option.(Daisy:Anoption.)Youknow,ifallelfails,hey,youknow,Ihonestlythi

nkifthatwouldhappentome,adoption,youknow,Icouldn'tfindotheroptionsfor

mylf,Iwouldalwaysconsideradoptionthelastresort,youknow.

Vivian:Abortion,thelastresort?

Daisy:hatshouldbesomethingthat'w,ifI

can'tkeepthisbabyorifwecan'ntscould

n'ouldalwaysbe.

Luke:Idoagreethat,thatbringingachildtotermandekingoutthatroute,ist

henoblethingtodo,(Vivian:Sure)butIjustdon'

ifthey'renotuptoit,Imean,(Vivian:Exactly)Iftheyarelikewaytostresdan

reakedoutandthey'alotofthefor

mativestuffthatgoesintobaby'scharacter,probablyhappensinthewombbefore

it'venpoppedup.

Vivian:Youknowthey'realwaystalkingaboutpeoplewhoarerapedorin,youkno

w,abudsituationswhereitwasaverytra...(Luke:traumatic)traumaticevent.E

vent?nt,andsomaybetheydon'tevenwantthisatall.

Bow:Notalwaysthough,afriendofmygrandmother's,Irememberthisstory,wh

enIwasyoung,she,uh,areallygreatpersonality,Ialwayst

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travellinginthePhilippines,andwasrape

dat,atnight,shehadnoideawhowasandshehadthebaby,andIremembert

kidwasjustlikeher,kidwasveryha

veditatthattime,soitjustdependsonyouknow,whoraisthekid.

Isuppo(Daisy:No,Yeah)...

Vivian:We'retalkingaboutthepersonthemlvesnotthebabytoo,Imean,itdoe

w,youcouldbeaveryyounggirl,andhavebee

nraped,Imean,ythatbuttherearealsoh

ealthreasons,whylikeyoungchildren,ifyourbodyisnotfullydeveloped,youcan

'lotofdoctorsma

kethatargumentthat,youknow,ifyourbodyhasnotcometoageyet,orit'snot

fullydevelopedyou'renotuptobearingababyyet.

Daisy:Well,notjustthat,Imean,youknow,Imean,you'vegota17-year-oldkid

who'spromiscuousandispregnant,andyou'regoingtoleaveituptohertotake

careofherbodyforninemonths?Shecouldbedrinking,(Vivian:Sure)shecould

behavingmore,youknow,ldbehaving,takingdrugssheyouneve

pointthatBowmadeabouthis,thestoryabouthisgrandmotherI

mean,inanidealsociety.(Bow:Grandmother'sfriend.)Ah!ealsocie

ty,we'dallbedoingthat,butit''suptoustoprovide

otheroptionsorIthinktheonlywaywe'regonnasolvethisproblemisbyeducati

ngourchildren.(Luke:Yeah)Lettingthemknowthatofcouryes,abortionexists.

Becauifwe,ifwemakeitillegalagainwe'regonnahavewomenhurtingthems

re'sgonnabebutchers,youknowin,uh,

w,'llbechaos.(Bow:

Knowledgeispower),let'streatourkidlet'steachourkids,um,soth

atthisdoesn'thappensowe'renothavingthempregnant,theyarenotgettingthe

dias,andthisdoesn'tbecome,evenbecomeanissue.

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Luke:astostartat

theveryfoundationsoftheeducationsystemagain.(Daisy:Yes,yes.)It'slike,an

dyouhaveto,it’suh,it'shumannature

youwanttoeifit's,somethinglikethathappens,youwannaeitcometote

rm,'sthehuman,that'sthe

''sthemostbeautifulthin

n'n't,itdoesn'tendhappilyineverysituation.

imatelyIdisagreewith,wi

'san,it'san,(Daisy:Abortion)it'sashittythingthatyouhavetogot

hrough.I'msure.I'llneverexperienceit,butwomenIknowwho'vedoneit,it'sbe

enlike,youknow,thehardestdec..,thehardestdecisionthey'veeverhadtomak

etogoactuallythroughwithit.

Daisy:Butthen,theproblemisthattoday,youknow,actuallyIhaveafriendinA

ustraliaandshe'shadfiveabortionsandshe's28.(Luke:Yeah)andsheisusingi

saidIjusthadmyfifthabortionwhenIlast

wenthome,andIsaidtoher"Doyouknowlikeknowaboutthepill,"oryouknow

said,yeahbutifI,ifItakethepill,youkn

ow,I'mgonnagainweight,andthisisjustlike,she's,justbecomesuchasuperfic

ialpersonwhereshecancheckherlfinherlunchbreak,breakintoanabortion

clinic,haveanabortion,comeoutandgobacktoworkandhasnoemotionalatta

chmentwhatsoever.

Vivian:See?Inthatsituation,itixtreme.(Vivian:Extremeandit'sunexceptable,

it'samoral,youknow)Well,obviously,wehaveagroupofpeoplehere,that..,yo

uknowwedon'thaveanyextremepeople,youknow,we'renotextremelypro-choi

aboutweattackthisquestion?Weobviouslyarekindofpr

o-lifebutalsopro-choice,fortheextremepro-choicepeopleofcourtheywanna

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say,hey,fromdayone,fromdayonethechildisaliveandyoucan'tkillitaftert

?(Daisy:Pro-lifepeople)nwhereexactlyinyouropi

nionis,doeslifebegin?BecauinAmericaIthinkformoststates,youknow,ab

ortionislegalornot,uh,orillegalinstatesdependingon,it',

um,usuallyIthinkit'stwomonthsisthe...(Daisy:Youcanhavean,youcanhav

eanabortionuptoyourfirsttrimester)u

rpersonalopinionshowfarcanyoutakeitoryoushouldn'ttakeitatall?

Bow:IalreadyansweredthatearlierIsaidthatIbelieveit'srightfromthebegin

'slifein,everything.(Vivian:Doy

outhink?)Yeah,Ibelievethat.(Vivian:Youtoo,Luke?HowaboutyouDaisy?)

Daisy:Yeah,well,youknow,IbelievethatIsaidthat,youknow,shortlyaftercon

ceptionIbelieveit'sbecomingachild,ababy,n'tbelievethatit'

salifeuntilit'

IbelievethatwhenthewomanmakesthatdecisionthatI'mgoingtohavethisch

ildandI'mgoingtolovethischildorI'mgoingtocarrythischild,soit'llbeloved

bysomeoneelthenit'salifeandthenit'salifethatit''simportant.

Luke:It'sbecomes,Ijustthinkit'salifefromthebeginningbutasitbecomesmor

ecomplex,it''ssortalikehowyoufeelbadaboutlike,uh,kil

lingabird,butyoudon''salllife,youdon'tfee

'sjusthigherthingsthatweeasbeingmore

childdevelopsandgro

that'swhe

nitreallystartstobecomeuh,likeyou.

Vivian:ThereasonwhyIaskthisquestionisbecau,surewhenwelookatitth

atwayit's,it'san,asimpleanswer,hey,youknow,it's,it'slifefromthebeginning

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tifwemadethatsituationmorecomplicated,whatifitwas

yourdaughter,Bow,andshewasrapedbysomestrangeronthestreetand,listen,

listen,andsheisonlyateenager,she'syoung,shewasraped,shedoesn'tknow

whothehellthispersonwas,youknow,andwhatifsheisputinthatsituation,

whatifshedidn'tknowshewaspregnant,hey?Oh!Andwait,whatifshe'salot

ofpeople,no,alotofpeopledon'tshowuntilwhatthey'rethirdorfourthmonths.

AmIright,Daisy?Imean,whatifshefoundoutafterthefirsttrimester,afterace

rtainpointwherealotofpeopledon'tagree,hey,afterthispointyoushouldn'tha

tifthesituationistotallyshe'stooyoung,she's,youknow,emotio

nallyupt,shemadethechoicethatshedoe

sn'ldyoufeelaboutthat?

Bow:Now?(Vivian:Yeah)Well,that'sthethingI''r

itwasyou?Whatwouldyoudo?Idon't,Idon'tknowwhatI

willdo.

Vivian:Yeah,itwasyourpartner,andwhatifitisyourfemalecounte

'syourchoicetogether,right?

Bow:Yeah,Idon'uldyoudo?Ifitwasyou?

Vivian:Butethat'swhatI'usimplysay,whenis,whendoes

lifebegin,andhowfarcanyoutakeit,

enwhenyoucomplicatethesituationyoureallycan'tgiveananswer.

Daisy:Well,ethelawsaysafteryourfirsttrimesteryoucannotle

gallyhaveanabortion,andI,Iwouldbepretty..,uh...

Vivian:Butnotinallcountries.

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Daisy:Well,almostallofthem.

Vivian:'ssaythatwasn'ttrue,that's,whatitisthewhole.

Daisy:Saythatwasn'ttrue?

Vivian:No,no,no.I'msayingthewholeissue,isthey'restillarguingwheredoesli

febegin,wheredoesitend,hat'swhat

I'ituationwascomplicatedlikethatImean,itwasyourowndau

ghter,oryourownmate,Imean,couldyousay?

Luke:Oncetheyhitelementaryschool,it'stoolatetoabort.

Vivian:Yeah,Ithinksotoo.

Daisy:Yeah,'tknow,Imeanthat'satough,youknow,Imean,tha

t'sbasicallythescientificevidencethatmostpro-lifersarearguingwithwithpro-cho

know,Ijust,thescientificinformation,formeit'smoreofuh,aspir

thatitiswrongtojustuabortionascontraceptionwhichwe've

believethatitisaconnectionthat,thatconnectionmakeslife,o

urconnectionwitheachother,ourrelationshipswitheachother,andmyfuturerela

tionshipwithmychildwhenIhaveachildIknowI'mpregnantandwhenIaccept

thatandI'malreadylovingthatchildandbringingitintolife,that'swhentheconn

inkmostwomenfeelthatway.

Luke:AndIthinkit'asytotalkabout,talkabout,youknow,whenyou'reinav

acuumandsaying,thisistherightthing,andI'mmorallylikethis,andIbelievein

,uh,yeah,unlessyouhaveexperiencedalltheemotionsthatcome

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wswhatyou'regonnado?

(Daisy:Exactly)Imean,youdon''asytoliketakethis

hypotheticalsituation,(Daisy:Sure)andsay,wellyouknow,afterthinkingthroughi

tandstuff,anyeah,doingit

is,actuallywhereyou'regonnafindyouranswerandbeingputinthatsituationy

oucan'trationalizethat.

Bow:Well,that'swhyitis,hing'smesdup,becauev

erybody,vetheopinionswhichwe

thinkthiscouldbeabasicfoundationbutpeoplewillstillfromnowuntiltheendof

timetheywillstillum,keeptalkingaboutthis,(Daisy:Sure)andkeepgoingthrou

tkeepyouropinions,youkno

w,likewhatyouthinkandyoutrytodobutyouhopeofcourasituationliketh

tdoesarithenyoutrytodealwithitasitcomes.

Daisy:Sure,that'eopleinthegovernment(Luke:Speakingonyour

behalfofcour)aregoingtomakedecisionsaboutmyfutureandmybody,andI

wannahaveasayinthat.I'mnotimpresdwhenconrvativeRushLimbaugho

tandupthere

andtellmewhatrightsIhaveasawoman,andwhatIcandowithmybody,I'm

offended.

Bow:Buttherearealsorepublicanorconrvativewomenincongresswho'revot

ingforthelawstoo.

Daisy:Yes,etheyare

women,n't,I,I,drawthelinewhenI'vegotabunchfullof

whitemaleconrvativesdiscussingmyfutureandotherwomen'sfuture.

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Vivian:withthat,butIdobelieve,I'msorrytogoagainstallthefe

believetheydohaveawordinthere,becau,um,av

erysmallword.I'mnotsayingabigword.

Luke:Ithinkforawomaninasituationwhereitwasn'tuh,amutuallymutualrelat

ionshipthishashappened,,not,notaclo

situation,allofasuddenapregnancycameupunexpectedlythemanwas,Iwant

nopartofthis,andthewomanwaslikeanddon'tsweatit,Idon'twanttomake

''re,ifyou'reinterestedinpursuingitfurthertha

ngoaheadbut,I'mchoosingtogo...inkthe

edtobeapartofit...

likeI'llfindaway,Imr

eallygonnadothis,I'mgonnagoaheadandI'nshecame,

andthentheguywasjustsortoflikeuh,she''shalf

mykid,man.

Bow:Actually,youknow,Ithinkthathappensinalotofcas,um,onepartner

makesthedecisionandit'slikesomebodyiswaitingfortheotheronetosay,yes,

nonceyougetthatconnsus,thenyougoaheadandt

henyoufindoutwhatchildrearingis,childbearingandchildrearinganditturns

ou.

Luke:Arewardingexperience.

Vivian:Ijustwannatouchonwhatthatjustremindedmeof...thewo

manweretogoaheadandconnttothisandsaythatshewantedthebabyand

therewasthemalewhodidn''thehavesome

thingtosay,whenhesaysIdon'outthatasp

ectofthisstory,no?

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Bow,Daisy:No.

Vivian:No?

Luke:Idon'tthinkso,Idon'tthinkI'dfeelinaplacethatI'veevertellawoman,

youhavetotakethatchild'slife,ifshefelt,shefelt,ifshefeltthatshewasgood

enoughtodoitandshewasupforthejob,nooneelwouldbemorequalified

thanher.

Vivian:'oufe

eloverallandmaybethen,somethoughts?

Bow:Um,IthinkDaisybroughtupareallypertinentpointwhichwas,whichcan

kindofalmostsumupeverythingwhichisthateducationisthekeypoint.(Vivian:

Definitely)And,uh,educatepeople,andletthemknowwhat'sgoingonasmucha

syoucan,putmoremoneyintotheschoolsforthatpurpoanduh...

Vivian:Andtheparentsshouldgetinvolved,'snotjustschools,(Luke:Talkt

oyourkids,toyourkids)don'tmakeitjusttheschools'orgovernments'responsibi

lity.

Daisy:Hopefully,youknow,ifweareabletodothat,ifwearetalkingtoourchild

ren,andweareteachingtheminschools,gettingthemasmuchinformationaspo

ssible,andtrustingtheirjudgment,maybetheywon'tevengettothesituationwher

ethey',youknow,we'vegottodosomething.

Vivian:Andsadlyenoughifyouwereputinthatsituation,thisismypersonalopin

ion,butIthinkeachsituationisdifferentregardlessifit'spregnancy,orviolence,o

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etokindoftakeitforeachcircumstance(Daisy:Right)onits

'tjustjudgeeverything.

Daisy:Thereisnoblackandwhite.

Vivian:Right.